KW: Today is May 24, 1978. This is Karen Wickre talking with Lili Mann at her home 243 Marison Street in Teaneck, New Jersey.

LK: I was president of the union once. I know that.

KW: You were? Under what, the CPC City Projects Council)

LK: Of the local dance-

KW: The Dancers Association, was that it?

LM: No. There was a big union of all the projects.

KW: The Workers' Alliance?

LK: NO.

KW: Or the CPC?

LK: What does CPC mean?

KW: City Projects Council.

LK: Well, maybe our- we had a separate branch. I know we had meetings all the time. And I know everybody had a chance to be president, I'm sure, because I do remember that I was president during one of the things and that we had one sit- in and I had to get up and make a speech. You know, I got up on the desk and- laugh) It's very funny to me. Are you recording this already? Oh, gosh!

KW: I just turned it on.

LK: I'd better not tell all that.

KW: Laugh) It's up to you.

LK: No, it's not important. I mean, we all had an opportunity to be chief executive there. But they were interesting meetings and there was always partisanship. There was a lot of dispute and there was always one little group that was against the regular group and I thought they were-

KW: Was this all to keep the Project going?

LM: It was mostly for grievances to open the Project to more people and certain demands that we felt. I can't remember what they were now at all. I think we had a tendency to ask for things that weren't as important as other things.

But in the main we were interested in getting more choreographers, getting more production and really working and not being hampered by the red tape that was involved in getting anything. We wanted to dance. There was no question about it. I mean, that was the most interesting and the best part of it, that we did dance all day long. We rehearsed and we were glad to rehearse and we wanted to perform. A lot of it was probably to Let's

get the show on the road, I'm sure.

KW: Because you felt you didn't have enough chance to perform.

LM: To perform. Actually though we ended up performing a lot, as you know. I mean, you have the programs. But to get back to me, if that's what you want to hear, how I worked into the Project.

KW: Yes. Start at the beginning and where you-

LM: You don't want to hear that story all over again about my childhood. But

when I. was about six, I tried to be a dancer and then in our family, academics was most important, scholarship was most important, school work was most important.

KW: The other side was. extra?

LM: So the- that was all extra and especially dancing was in very low esteem. So I concentrated- I was the youngest of four and they were all bright children. I mean, my sister was a valedictorian in high school and in elementary school. And my brother was a student and I had to compete with them. So all my energies went that way and, you know, the idea was that you go to college and get a degree. That was important. So I did that but I stopped thinking about

dance when I was about seven, I guess. I can't remember wanting to dance after

that at all. Can't remember- maybe from time to time if I saw something.

And when they wanted to give us lessons in things to be cultured, it was

always music. And every time they did that I said, Well, how about dancing? But they never gave me dance. Then in college they had a modern dance class and that- well, even before that I remember going out with two young men. My friend and I were taken to a dance concert.

KW: Modern dance?

LM: Modern dance. I had never seen modern dance before and these boys were older than we were. I mean, I must have been about 16 and they were about 18, you know, and they were very wise and very- they were Bohemian and they knew what was going on everywhere. And they took us to a concert of Mary Wigman and I was overwhelmed with it! I had never seen anything like that and as soon as I saw it, I said, That's what I'm going to do. I knew immediately. It was a strange experience because it was very vivid. I had never seen anything like it and I said, That's what I'm going to do. And in my last year of school, I didn't know how or where or what. I just knew that that was it.

I got out of college quite young and my last year of college they had intro- duced a dance class. I remember it was Eleanor Lilbach's. Did you ever hear that name?

KW: No, I never did.

LM: Eleanor Lilbach Kline was her name, and she was a charming young woman. And

she gave the modern dance class and immediately told me that I should be

doing that, that I was very good. I got an A, Laugh) one of the few

A's that I got. But oddly enough, I was a math and physics major, and I graduated with a degree in physics. I switched from math to physics. First I was a math major and then I switched to physics. But I took these courses

in dance, everything that they had to offer. There was one choreography class and of course it ARS all at a very infant stage. And then when I got

out of school, I proceeded to look for a job and I looked under Dancers. KW: Dance magazines?

LM: No. New York Times. I did try to became an engineer and I did go up to an

engineering school, as a matter of fact. And they laughed at me. They said, What] A woman engineer? You're crazy. Forget it. This is exactly what they told me, totally discouraged me. You know, I would have gone to an engineering school after that, but it was such a flat rejection that I just had no alternative. I didn't even think about it. And I was very naive

and very, very- about the ways of the world. I really didn't understand

anything. I was a child, very young and if they said No, it was No. I mean, I didn't resist.

KW: You hadn't had any hints in school by your teachers that this might happen though? LM: No. Well, I had heard, but I thought I would find out anyway. In all my classes

I was the only girl. Most of the girls did not study math or physics. You

know, that was not a female subject. Don't forget, this was many years ago. KW: I think it's not that different now,

LM: You think it's still so? I'm sure there are many more women in engineering and science than there were.

KW: There are a few more coming in, but I'll bet they are still pretty top- heavy with men.

LK: Yes. As a matter of fact, they're trying to encourage women to became doctors and things. But in those days, I was the only girl as a matter of fact in most of my science classes. It was physics and math: not chemistry, but

physics and math, which was especially male. And they really laughed me out of that school. I even think it was a famous school of engineering.

So the next thing was to look up and get a job when you get out of college.

And I looked under dancers and there was an ad in the paper: DANCERS WANTED. It was Sara Mildred Strauss. You've heard that name, I'm sure.

KW: Yes.

LM: I went down and she took everybody. I don't think she was very discriminating. Anything that wanted to be a dancer and they were really big and little. They were all sizes and all shapes. But they did have in common that they wanted to be dancers.

KW: W011, what was the job, though?

LM: The job turned out to be- me mere going to work on numbers, production numbers, and then audition. There was not a job. It was really a bait. It was a come- on. She wanted people to work for nothing and then get a job with them. And I don't know how she selected. It seemed to me that she took everybody.

First of all, I could hardly do anything. I had a year of dance in college and that was practically nothing, but she had determined to train us. And she trained us- like it was a zoo, I mean like we were wild animals. We were made to eat carrots and raisins and we worked for very long hours. Of course, we were healthy and young, and we were able to do this. But-

KW: You were going in training.

LM: We went into- like a prize tighter, you know. And she was a very domineering

woman, a big, tall woman. You've seen pictures of her in that- we did get jobs eventually. And six months after this training period, we landed a job. We were in the Ziegfield Follies. Now when I think about it, we were such an odd assortment of people, I don't know how they, why they took us. But modern- dance- again, that was a period when it was just taking hold and they wanted little new things in the theatre. And they were looking for novelty.

KW: In Musical theatres?

LM: In musical comedy. They were tired of the hoofers. I think people were just

getting tired of seeing hours and hours of tapping and kicking of legs. So they wanted something different and she offered this romantic stuff, very romantic stuff that me did.

KW: But modern also?

LM: Modern in style, totally modern. And she had experimented with modern dance.

She did dances without music and she had experimented with modern. But this she specifically was determined to make same money finally. Of course she had been around modern dance for a while. So we got the job. We t this job with the Follies and that's when I met Susy- that's where I met them. They had come, too, for this audition. Eva had had some work already since She was a child. She had been dancing for a while. Sue had started maybe a year ahead of me, so

she wasn'tshe was a little bit ahead of me. She had some ballet. I had nothing. I had just had that year. I was a fake and well, she trained us to

do those things, and we could do those things. And we worked in the Follies and their idea was to give us- you know, to enhance the show and then they'd fire us, get the people to come because it was so full of novelty.

KW: But why fire you then?

LM: Well, because they didn't want to pay the money any more. And you know, the Follies: had a reputation by itself. Nobody would know the difference. just, you know, they'd have us and they didn't announce that they were firing us or

that the show had left the show. This is the way they were. I'm sure they did that with other shows, too. They would get a novelty act because it was a big, big show. Oh, they had many, many acts.

KW: Was this the early thirties?

LM: This was the middle thirties: I would say. Yes, 1934, 1935. I'm not sure

exactly when. In the middle thirties and well, they kept us for about two and a half months. So it was exciting. We enjoyed it very much. I used to watch the show every night. You know, to be right out of college into

the Ziegfield Follies was quite a jump. And that's the way my career started, right at the Ziegfield Follies, you know, which is funny. Six months after I'm dancing, here I am in the Follies. What happened, there was a lot of bickering going on. Everybody- there was always griping and in dance companies that's very common. I mean, you're griping against the director. You find something wrong with her, and we were griping a lot about Sara Mildred Strauss. And when they fired us, we said, We're going to fire her. We felt very strong. You know, here we had gotten a job in the Follies and we were strong. And Eva and Sue and I decided to have a trio, make our own trio and do our own auditions.

KW: The purpose being getting auditions?

LM: Being getting jobs, getting into vaudeville. There was still vaudeville and still, you know, in connection with movies they still had some vaudeville shows. And that we would audition and get jobs or in a show, in another show. WO would, you know, try to. In the meantime there were other little companies around so that we worked together for a short while. It didn't work out too well because we didn't hit it off, the three of us. I mean, two of us hit it off: three of us didn't. Anyway, it didn't last too long, the trio.

KW: Did you get jobs at all?

LK: WO did audition for something, I remember, and we almost got something. And

I can't remember whether they got something. Did Eva say anything about

whether she and Sue got anything at that period without me or whether? I don't know. KW: I can't remember. I don't remember anything long- lived.

LM: No, it didn't last too long. Another reason was that there were other things

happening around and we would attempt to go there. Well, as a matter of fact, the three of us went to Eddie Strawbridge at that time. So we all three got that job, I don't know how. I was terrible.

KW: In his group?

LM: In his group, yes.

KW: Was he more ballet? That's always been my impression.

LM: Yes, definitely. That's why I was hopeless there. I remember that. They had had ballet training, and why he took me I'll never know. But he did take me into his-

KW: Maybe he liked the three of you together somehow.

LM: I don't know. We were friends. You know, that's very vague in my mind. But he used to scream at me because I couldn't do pirouettes. I never learned

pirouettes, you know- You have to practice that. I never had any lessons at all. So anyway, I stayed with him and oddly enough, I stayed there the longest. And I became one of his leading dancers. They left. I don't know where they went, but they all went their own way eventually. I stayed with him a little longer. I

know I was longer than Sue because she had other things and I don't know what happened to Eva. But I was with him and he was giving me the leading roles so

it was worthwhile persisting. But at first I almost left because he was so cruel to me. He'd scream at me, you know. And that's how I got my training, by being screamed at by all these people. First Sara Mildred Strauss would scream, Get that deadpan off your face! You know, I didn't smile.

KW: Maybe that's the best way.

LM: It was the best way, but I didn't know that and, you know, I was young and barely out of school. So then after that we did do a lot of touring with

Eddie but we'd always get stranded on the road. We went out on tours and we-

and then the Project came along, and I was the first one to get on the Project. I don't know, Sue never did. Oh, yes, she did later on, much later, but she was doing other things.

KW: How did you hear about it? Do you remember?

LM: You know how I heard about it? I had gone to a concert, I think, a program

of the New Dance Group, something like that. I wish I kneW7 how I met Fanya Geltman because I think Fanya was the one that was instrumental and she said,

Listen, this is what you have to do to get on the Project. And she said, You do a, b, c, d, e. And I did that.

KW: To get on relief and-

LM: To get on relief first because I needed that job, you know. I had no job. It was very legitimate really. So I got on relief and she said, Now you apply for the Project, and that's how I got on the Project. As I said, I was one of the first. Eva didn't get on at all really as a part of the Project, She went on as an assistant to Charles, I think.

KW: Yes, and Doris. Yes.

LM: And Doris, yes. But that was much later because before that I worked with Doris and Charles and they invited me into their company. As a matter of

fact, I danced with them at the Stadium. This was the result of my association with them and I danced with them at the Lewisohn Stadium. But I was more interested in modern. I was famous for that because they would be very upset with me. She never came on the Project: It was beneath her to do it. Oh, what happened with Martha, I went to a concert at Martha's and I didn't know what the hell they were doing. It was absolute Greek to me. I was fascinated

by it, but I had to go baCk twice. I went three times before I understood what

she was driving at. And then when I did, when I finally dug it, that

was it for me. And so from there I went straight to Martha. I mean, I had done all this stuff with Eddie Strawbridge and with Charles and with- and I'd done the Project. We did Candide, for which I got a lot of marvelous comment,

and as you know, I was asked to do a screen test and I blew it. I said I wasn't interested in acting. They asked me whether I was interested in acting. I said, No, I'm a dancer. I don't know, somehow it didn't come off. I never did the screen test, but I had, you know, all kinds of wonderful letters

and good reviews and everything. But I was going to be a concert dancer. That was my plan and I was going to work with Martha.

KW: Was that her plan? I mean, did you approach her with this plan?

LK: No, that didn't happen that way quite. You go into her studio and you suffer for about five years. I mean, you go under the whip, and I did. Well, I went off the Project with Charles. We did a show. Is that one we did? I'd Rather Be Right, yes. And that was the end of the Project for me because he took me with him, so that's why I left the Project and I told you that story. I worked ill the show. I thought, this is going to be my big opportunity because this: was after Candide and I. was going to be a star after that, and this was going to be my leading role.

KW: Were you like his partner in this thing?

LM: Well, he gave me all the good spots in the show so, you know, I was going to be found" in I'd Rather Be Right. And it turned out that they didn't like what he did, so that turned out to be a disaster. And as I said, they

fired him and the modern dancers.

KW: at, him too?

LM: Him too. They got a new- you know, the old choreographer, the old hoofer,

Robert Altman, brought him in, and redid all the dancing with the hoofers. And they kept maYbe a little spot of what he had done, so just- I don't know why I was kept. I was kept because there was some kid, one of the

chorus boys, who was a great favorite on Broadway and was a great favorite of Altman and who liked me and put in a word for me and they kept me on. Now that was probably the worst thing that ever happened to me because

for one year I was buried, I did nothing but just draw a salary. And I almost had a breakdown then because it was such a disappointment.

KC And a bore, I would think.

LM: And a terrible- well, it wasn't a bore. It was just I was very unhappy because I wanted to be getting on, you know.

KW: What was this, like a musical comedy review or something?

LM: Sig musical I'd Rather Be Right was a big, big musical with George M. Cohan and

KW: couldn't tell if it vas a story unfolding or if it was just-

LM: just a musical comedy. It was about the presidency. No, I'd rather be right, some president said that. I can't remember who- who was it? Roosevelt!

I'd rather be right than be President. It was about Roosevelt. It was a whole musical about Roosevelt and it was pretty successful. I was not crazy about George M. Cohan. I remember I didn't like him too much. He was very exclusive and he had his own valet. He never talked to anybody in the company. But it was a nice company and it was fun except that I was very depressed by it because I wasn't dancing. So that went on for about a year and then after that I went to Martha to study, and I worked very, very hard with her. And I was getting recognized and I did some demonstrating for her up at the Y, and I really developed as a dancer there. I mean, let's face it, she was a great

teacher, is a great, great teacher. And I became a dancer in her studio. KW: How long were you a student of hers?

LM: I was with her for about four or five years and I was invited into her company as a matter of fact, to tour with her. At the same time, I was also asked by Agnes De Mille to go on tour with her company. And also I was asked to be in several shows. I was to replace in one thing and Anita Alvarez

in another thing. None of those things happened. I wentit was like a contest. At the same time that Martha asked me, Agnes asked me. And I ended up going away with Agnes because Martha couldn't make up her mind about what to do. So I went on tour with Agnes and that's where I met Katie Litz. It was just Katie Litz and I and Joe Anthony, who was a director. This was the

company, and Agnes. We had a wonderful time. We toured with her for six months and then I went, did things with Bill. That was Winter's Tale we did, a Shakespearean thing. And what else? And I danced all these years with the New Dance Group.

KW: Oh, really? In addition?

LM: All through this, in addition to everything else. I constantly danced with them.

Was that a core group of people that you could just fill in?

LK: That was the company. No, that was a very specific small company. There were five of us. There was Nina and Muriel and myself and Dora and who was the Other one? Now, we were consistently the New Dance Group. We did wonderful things. We did all Sophie's ballets and James and we went to New London with them and danced there many, many summers. I kept dancing all the time, and I taught for many years. I taught up at Connecticut. I taught at

the Randall School in New London. Not New London: New London was the festival.

We'd go there every summer. And I taught at the New Dance Group and I was on the Board of Directors of the New Dance Group. This happened all through all of this. This is all in addition to the other thing.

KW: This is all when? In the late thirties and early forties?

LM: All through the forties, yes, thirties and forties, and until I got married. KW: It sounds like a killing schedule.

LM: No, it was the life of a dancer. It was from morning till night. Come home at night, 10: 00, 11: 00, 12: 00, take a hot bath, go to sleep, get up the next morning, go to class. Go to class, rehearsal in the afternoon, performance at night. And this went on for all those years and it was not killing at all.

It was wonderful because it was creative. Years in the studio, it was working with one Choreographer or another, also doing your own work, doing your own

concerts.

KW: It sounds like that's the period when concert dance really opened up, that there was a lot more chance to be in and do these kind of things than there were like in the early thirties.

LM: Well, I don't know what's happening now. I think there's an enormous amount of dance now. Unfortunately, I. haven't been associated with the dance so I don't know exactly what's happening, but there's a real abundance of dance. It is mostly in the ballet, true, which is sad, but there are modern dances

still, a lot of modern dance, too. Paul Taylor, Merce Cunningham, Alvin Ailey I suppose is modern. They're all balletic though. They're all not as modern as the modern dance was then and not as exclusively modern. Well, this is the Graham Company.

KW: Were modern and ballet so far apart then?

LM: Not as different. They kind of used each other. There has been a meeting of

the two forms. Balanchine has attempted to use modern. Jerome Robbins has used the modern dance more than most of the ballet dancers. Well, Paul Taylor leans more to the modern than to the ballet but is steeped in ballet. Who else are the modern dancers?

KW: Joyce Trisler?

LM: I am not familiar with her.

KW: I'm not that much either.

LM: I don't know. You know, I've never seen Joyce Trisler. Isn't she a modern dancer?

KW: I think so, and she seems to concentrate on these Denishawn or that's part of her- LM: Oh, really? Trisler has done that one.

KW: That's what Klarna Pinska said. She revised some of the dances or- LM: Oh, I didn't know that about her. I really have to see Joyce Trisler. I've heard about her. Then there's-

KW: Pilobilus?

LM: Pilobilus. I suppose those are- I'm not excited about Pilobilus or about that Murray Louis and what's his name? You know, the guy that Murray Louis works with. Oh, Alwin Nikolais. It's a very, very theatrical form.

KW: Was Nikolais involved with the Dance Project then? Do you know?

LM: No. As a matter of fact, he was in New London. When I taught at New London

at the Randall School- not New London. What's the other town, not New London? Isn't that awful?

KW: Not Mystic or something?

LM: No, I taught up in-

KW: I don't know where the Randall School is.

LM: I used to go up every weekend and teach. I'll think of it. Not New Haven,

but the next stop after New Haven. Anyway, I spent two years teaching up there

and he taught there at that time, too. In the Opera House or something he taught his dance. He comes from there, Connecticut. Isn't that terrible? That Randall School in- laugh) I'll think of it. It's not New London.

It's New something- isn't that awful? I wish Merrill were here. He remembers everything. Anyway, that's where he comes from originally, Alwin Nikolais, and he came to New York and he had this thing about very theatrical forms, about moving people around as if they were props. Dancers were not too thrilled with that. People love it though because it's very colorful and,

you know, it's more like mobiles but it's not human beings,

And Murray Louis is, I find, very narcissistic. I don't know if you've ever seen him.

KW: I haven't.

LM: But to me the great, great one, of course, was Martha, who got drama, theatre,

and essential dance in the way that no one else has. Because dancing her work was the most gratifying. You somehow felt that you were using your body as

completely as you possibly could use it. There was no one else who had that. Humphrey- Weidman were lovely. It was a great, spatial, airy kind of movement, you know, where you swept across the stage and used space in a marvelous way. And it was fulfilling but not in the way that Martha was- well, for some people,

I guess. For me it was the expressive form, the most deeply expressive. And the people whom she has produced, most of the modern young people have had work

with her and some of the ballet people, too. The really fine ones you'll see

the depth of the work as a result of her. Oh, the thing that I forgot to mention,

I said it as if I stopped. I didn't really stop when I got married and had my children. I worked here. We've lived in Teaneck since 1950, since 1953 to be exact, and I had a school here. I had an enormous school, a full school with.

LM: after I moved here. What happened was that a lot of people who knew me-

you know; people who live here are ex- New Yorkers, all of them, because there was no place to live in New York. We were pushed out of New York. I remember searching while I was pregnant for an apartment for that whole time to find a place to live, because we were living in, you know, these weird apartments where it was hard to have a child. Of course, we lived up near the park in these big, old, brownstone houses and there were no really good bathrooms. There were no kitchens. I lived- I had a whole beautiful floor through. I

wish. I had it now: but it had no plumbing and, you know, you can't have a baby that way. So we had to move out here. About two or three years after we lived here, they were clamoring for dance. They were people who knew about these things and I had a marvelous school with some of the greatest kids. I've produced a lot

of dancers who are in the field today. One of the girls is with the American Ballet, one of the girls- she was a ballet dancer. It's interesting though.

You get kids in the studio and you know this one's a ballet dancer, this one's

a modern dancer. They're different personalities, they're constructed differently, they work differently. I could tell immediately. There was one child that was very gifted as a modern dancer, but she wanted to be a ballet dancer. It's a state, a mental state, you know. Somewhere they became- and you can't stop it.

But T. urged her not to do it because I said, You're not constructed like a

ballet dancer. You don't move like a ballet. Well, she spent about six

or seven years working like a demon and nothing came of it. I mean, she became

very capable, you know: competent, but she never became a real dancer and she could not get into any company. On the other hand, I had a kid, a little kid, who was marvelous, had had very little dance of any kind. Whatever she did was great but she looked like a ballet dancer. Well, she worked with me for oh, all

the time till she got out of high school and then went into ballet. No, she started ballet while she was still with me and I suggested that she do it. She became a ballet dancer and she's doing magnificently. She's going to be a very fine dancer. She's going into a big company, I know, but she's just a natural ballet dancer and you can see it. I wouldn't have believed it when I was becoming a dancer because I wouldn't hear of ballet.

KW: Well, people probably saw it in you. You know, you said-

LM: Yes, but I rejected the idea. I still don't know which would have been best

for me. I know that what I get gratification from wasthe thing that I

enjoyed most was doing Martha's work. It's very exciting to do, and I never liked the ballet. I could have done it probably but I never really enjoyed it. So I did that, you know, after- from 1953 on about.

KW: Do you still have it now?

LK: Oh, no. No. What happened, I just got sick and tired of teaching. I never really was a teacher.

KW: It's hard work, too.

LM: Well, it wasn't for me. I did it under protest all those years because I had no other outlet. I mean, I had one child and then I had another child, and it

was too hard to get to rehearsals. I did go back to the New Dance Group as a matter of fact, after Phoebe was born, and I taught there for a couple of years. But it was very difficult. I was guilt- ridden about it, leaving them with babysitters, and I did it badly. I really handled it very badly. So then I got as much dance as I could this way, but I never really was happy because I wanted to be performing. That was essentially what I was, a performer, not a teacher. I taught at the New Dance group but there it was always a part of performance. I taught for 15 years there, but that was always part of performing

because the teaching was at night, the rehearsal was during the day. And it wasn't as if you were teaching because you were teaching dancers. In a situation like this you were teaching a handful of dancers. The majority of the kids were not dancers. In a sense it was better than most because they came to study dance.

If you teach in a school, it's terrible because none of them are dancers so I avoided that. I didn't want to teach in a school, college or anything. So I did have wonderful kids, but only a handful, you know. And I'd work with them

and we'd always have a company and they'd always leave when they were 16. At

17 they'd go off to college and that was very frustrating. I'd have a marvelous company, do a whole program, and half of them were gone. So that would happen

year after year and I got very tired of that and I got very tired of teaching. So I decided to be a writer. So that was end of career there.

KW: End of that career anyway.

LM: But it was that particular career. I should never have stopped dancing. KW: But it's hard to keep up.

LM: I couldn't do it, all those things at once, because I had all the other things to do. So that's my whole life story in a minute.

KW: In a nutshell.

LM: in a nutshell. I don't think I mentioned everything, but I did a lot of

touring. During the campaigns, I remember I danced during some of the

political campaigns. I remember being on tour with Norman Mailer once. KC Vas this: before speeches they'd just have- I mean, what was-

LM: Yes. Well, they'd have entertainment and then somebody would get up and make

a speech. It was for a rally. I remember doing that for- Wallace. We campaigned

and he was on the program, Norman Mailer, and I was and a couple of other people.

And we danced for benefits, a lot of benefits. And then I toured all through

as a soloist with a small sort of revue company with- did you ever hear of Irwin Corey, that nut?

KW: Yes.

LM: He was our comic. He nearly killed me, I remember. He used to do the curtain

for me and he'd say, I'm going to give you 12 curtain calls" and he'd go like this. Laugh) It was crazy but it was dance, dance, always- I always was performing, always. And that's why when I couldn't perform any more I began to get unhappy, just to teach.

KW: That's somethingI don't think that can happen anymore. I mean, you don't hear of those many opportunities for dancers. You're with a company or-

LM: Yes, I don't know. That's right. I found opportunities. I was always performing. Weekends I used to go up to these little summer- you know, during the summer. I worked in camps during the summer. Sure. I worked every year. I worked up at

Camp Tamiment two summers with Danny Kaye, Imogene Coca. I worked up at Green Mansions for two summers.

KW: Yes, and even my impression of the WPA Works Progress Administration) Dance Project is that people were kind of in and out of each other's productions. You know, it wasn't like this is a company and this is a company.

LM: That's true. Yes, there were many companies but I only danced with Charles and Doris.

KW: Why don't we talk a little about them. What were they like to work with? Compare them to Martha or whoever you want to, if you can.

LM: Okay. Oh, sure, I can. I knew them all very well.

KW: What were the differences?

LM: On the Project there was Charles and Jose. Now, he did Candide, which. was our big,

It was a great pleasure. I know that I enjoyed going to rehearsals every day. We'd rehearse all day.

KW: Was he there a lot?

LM: He was always there, sure.

KW: He was always handy. It wasn't like he was a taskmaster.

LM: Not at all, no, no. He came in and he did the thing. He did the whole

production. He taught it to us, worked it out on us. He had done it before

apparently. There was a production of Candide before he came on the Project. KW: With this company?

LM: Yes, but I don't know how much- they didn't do it very much and he just redid

it for us, I think. But he really redid it, he worked on it. We worked very hard on it and he got the whole thing done. And Jose came with him sometimes to help, Jose Limon, but we didn't work with him. He just came there and he helped with the production because I guess he remembered a lot of it, too.

But we used Project people. And then Doris came on and she did with my Red Fires. We did that with her and she taught us. We did To the Dance, which I did with her company. That's the one thing I was invited to do and I was the only one,

as a matter of fact, that danced with them at the stadium and did this dance, To the Dance. I remember I loved it.

KW: Was that after the Project, this stadium thing?

LM: No, that was still while we were on the Project. It was before we left it. KW: They were in and out?

LM: That's right. Oh, sure, they did their productions, regular things. You know, the Project just used them for this production. I could have gone with them but I didn't. I went with Charles and when he went off, you know, and he did a show-

KW: What did they have, a joint company?

LM: They had a joint company. They did concerts together all the time. KW: But then also separate groups that you didn't-

LM: No,

KW: Well, how could you-

LM: They worked separately They worked with their company separately. I did not

go with her. I did this while I was on the Project and I enjoyed very much doing it, but I didn't stay with them because I wanted to go to Martha. In fact, I used to came in from classes with Martha. I took classes with Martha while I was on the Project as a matter of fact. I just remembered that because I used to come on and do the stuff, you know, and they'd get very upset about it, Doris especially. They used to call Ile, Oh, here comes little Martha" because I, you know, Martha was-

KW: You were using her techniques?

LM: Using her techniques because I loved it laugh) and I would try everything out,

you know, there. I didn't study with Doris and Charles. I wanted to study with Martha and it was a problem because I was working with them. I know Doris- I remember when I once came to take a class with her and she said

something about You're still shopping around. I mean, she knew that I was interested in working with- it was nonsense really, but there was a very strong feeling. The strongest feeling, however, was against ballet, the modern dancer against the ballet. But beyond that there was always a great competitive thing between Doris and Martha.

KW: And yet Martha didn't mind you, going to-

LM: Martha didn't even know. She was totally disinterested in the Project, She

didn't even know. I mean, she wasn't interested in me at all at that time.

I was just beginning and I was in the beginners' class there. I didn't develop in her work until after the Project was way over and then I did a couple of concerts with her. I did Primitive Mysteries and I did American Document and the whole concert series that she did and that was very exciting.

Then I was asked to join her company on the road and I would have been in the company then. But as I said, there was a slipup there and instead of going

with her, I went off with Agnes. No, that's when I went with Bill: as a matter

of fact. That's when I went touring with Bill. I remember getting a letter from Martha, a note with her picture at Christmas time She sent me because I was

very upset with her. That's another story, but anyway, that's what went on there. There was this competition. It wasn't important, but there were great

debates going on, which was the better technique, which was more important. And

there were people who were strictly for Doris and people who were strictly for Martha.

KW: Were they really that different in style?

LM: They were a different kind of dance. Sure, there was a different quality to

the dance. There was a whole different feeling about the kind of dance that

it was. For instance like Eva never went to Graham. Sue never went to either

one of them, but she did both of them. I mean, she enjoyed doing them Some people never went to Martha at all although I think Eva when She went up to New London one summer took some of her classes. I think she did. But, you know: it was just a personal choice. It was a choice of temperament, I guess,

the kind of temperament.

KW: From all descriptions, it seems like they would be well, Eva's word is

cerebral! for Doris. So it just seems like they were both kind of cool and- LM: No, it wasn't cerebral.

KW: with a vision.

LM: It was spatial more than anything else.

KW: Well, she's contrasting to Weidman's being emotional.

LM: Oh, you mean between Doris and Charles you're talking about? Or Martha? KW: Well, Eva said that Doris was cerebral compared to Charles.

LM: To Charles, yes.

Dr: Well, the way you're describing Martha it sounds like she would be more cerebral.

LM: She wasn't cerebral. No, I wouldn't call it cerebral at all. What Martha is is very central, very introspective. That's what the difference is. Martha's

work was very introspective. Doris's was very spatial and very- just the opposite. It was very outgoing. Of course, there are other aspects of it. Doris's work was very musical, very based on the music, and she used music as a frame. She used the music- her dancing had a musical idiom. Martha's work was independent of music. It was just contrapuntal to it, totally, you know, it was used as a- the way scenery would be used, as an addition to it, not as

an integral part of it. With Doris the music was very integrated. Can you see the difference?

KW: Yes. That's an interesting distinction.

LM: Martha's work was from the inside out always and Doris's was in design. It was never emotional.

KW: Yes, plus from what I know of a number of hers, she's interested in a kind of, not social themes always per se, but kind of, you know, motifs from American history.

LM: Right. Martha had that, too, but she did it in another way. Very personal, that was the difference. Extremely personal. Very introspective is the word.

Very deeply introspective and very personal, everything. And Charles was dramatic. His stuff was all drama, you know, a story, and it was great. And he used movement in a very telling, dramatic way. Martha was able to integrate drama but the essence of the style was very personal. And you felt that you were getting the feeling of her story, not just the story.